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Messages - Fallouturama

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Framework development / Re: User suggestions and requests
« on: August 02, 2009, 09:10:43 am »
Hi everybody!  :)

  First I want to say that I understand that devs are currently busy with important things, but I also know that is comming the next developer meeting ,and I didnt want to loose the chance of proposing something I have been thinking about. If is not a bad idea, and if is usefull, maybe you guys could spend a lil time to discuss it ;D (off course, just in case you have time for it  :), otherwise no prob.  ). And dont worry, Im not pushing here to make you guys inmediatly work on my desires :D , really, I just want to discuss with you my thoughts and my points of view, as well as proposing things that may be implemented one day if possible/usefull. I need to discuss this things with you before start anything serious.

  Well I have been searching for info and studing layer-elevations in FIFE for some days ,and after testing  some maps with buildings with more than just 1 floor (n elevations), and trying many differents ideas to find a practical solution for this, I want to share you all what I found out and also make a simple proposal to offer users a practicall way to manage elevations.

Findings about elevation in layers:

    I think FIFE already handles z axis positioning and offsets very properly. I have edited (and client-tested) some maps with multi-elevation buildings with objects inside (furniture) and characters moving inside and I never had to use "stackpos"or floats in any x/y positional values as I managed to setup cellgrids to make instances to fit well into them(Using 3rd party wall and roof tiles which had unknown geometries for me).

    Layers serve very well for the z-ordering (drawing order of instances ) between them, and for grouping objects that need to easily and directly interact between them (eg. characters and walls).Because of this 2 qualities, I guess layers are found to be the most primary feature that allows buildings floors to be stacked one each other, and to allow instances to interact over them.

    Current FIFE layers just by themselves cant be used to provide an entirely n-floor building structure .Instances inside multiple layers need to be separated each others by some z axis distance or elevation value.The only clear way I found to achieve this is using the "z" value of instances, not objects x and y offsets and neither layers x and y offsets.Layers x and y offsets are not the proper way to raise and lower instances because this doesnt work when the camera is ment to rotate the map, this is the reason why I discover that is not the proper way to achieve elevation, because elevation must work also when rotating the map(Things are made always for a reasson  ;) ).

  At first I attempt to use layers x and y offsets in order to achieve elevation because I readed an article about layers in a wiki page documenting the map format ,suggesting that this offsets values could be used for a roof layer:
 x_offset: X offset for this layer. Useful for e.g. roof layer. Defaults to 0.0. Type = float
 y_offset: Y offset for this layer. Useful for e.g. roof layer. Defaults to 0.0. Type = float
  I dont know what was the intention of this example, maybe its not totally wrong, but I think currently the most clear way to raise a roof layer is setting up the "z" value of roof tiles instances.
    Well, the big disadvantage I found that doesnt let multi-elevation editing and handling be more practical ,is that the only way to raise or lower groups of instances (by owr objective: simple map editing.Not just by scripts) is to set up the "z" value of instances , one by one, individually. This is really unpracticall because sometimes we have lots of instances that has to be separately and individually z-positioned and because currently the editor doesnt manage this, we have to edit this on the xml file manually. Besides the editor lack of this functionallity,( that I think is not  the big deal), I guess that the real problem is the lack of the concept of "elevated layer",despite we have z offsets/positioning  and  layers working properly (but separatly).


    I think that as layers are by theirselves a basic z axis positioning element, because their stackable nature and drawing z-order functionality, but they should also contain information about how much separated (z axis distance)  they are between each other. If we think this way, we can relatively raise or lower group of instances (all instances in a layer) to a absolute zero  z axis cordinate value per layer (z=0 : origin of z axis ; z axis relative to the current layer). This way all the z values of instances are going to be relative to that z origin of the layer where they are contained , still allowing an individual and flexible z correction per instance. The idea is to add a tag on the xml description of each layer, specifing the distance between the current layer and the one is inmediatly under, being the absolute z-origin of all the system, the z position of the first (most lower)layer.Lets call this tag "z_elevation".Each absolute layer z-origin value can be obtained by adding all the "z_elevation" values of all the lower layers.Each instance z value will be relative to its container layer absolute z origin.

  The benefits are:
  •      Native and simple  multi layer-elevation support.
  •      Avoid lots of individual z value offsets/position settings
  •      Unified (Simple) value (layer tag) to set an elevated layer
  •      Flexible support for raising/lowering individual instances by a relative z value tag on each instance
  •      Support for future implementation of "height maps" (per layer) by affecting individual relative z values for each grid.
  •      Backwards compatibility:default z_elevation=0, so old maps will have intact the effects of their z values.
  •      Layer-Elevations much simpler to implement in the editor ( against the idea to modifiy  lots of instances z values ).
  •      Individual instance z value offsets/position simpler ( clearer ) to handle by scripts because of the relative nature (relative_z_origin=0).
  •      In future clients, multiple elevations, buildings, caves,underground structures can be edited in a much simpler way.
  •      It may be easier to code because layers and z axis positioning is already implemented.
  The bad part:
  •      Changes a (really small) bit the map format.
  •      Maybe is a bit complicated modification.
  •      Some old maps would maybe need to be adapted
  •      Another anoying proposal from this Fallouturama guy  :D  ;D

Map XML Example:
Code: [Select]
<!-- Current way to handle an elevation-->
<layer x_offset="0.0" pathing="cell_edges_only" y_offset="0.0" grid_type="square" id="ObjectLayer_3" x_scale="0.5" y_scale="0.5" rotation="0.0">
<i o="wall_3"          x="-39.0" y="72.0"  z="4.0" r="45" ></i>
<i o="paint_gun" x="-38.0" y="72.0"  z="4.0" r="90" ></i>
<i o="ceiling lamp_2" x="45.0"  y="25.0"  z="6.0" r="0"    stackpos="-1"></i>
<i o="Leonard_Nimoy" x="69.0"  y="39.0"  z="4.0" r="90" ></i>
<i o="OVNI_saucer" x="-94.0" y="-20.0" z="5.5" r="0" ></i>

<!-- New proposal to handle an elevation-->
<layer x_offset="0.0" pathing="cell_edges_only" y_offset="0.0" grid_type="square" id="ObjectLayer_3" x_scale="0.5" y_scale="0.5" rotation="0.0" z_elevation="0.3">
<!-- Assuming the lower layer absolute z value=3.7; check out the graph -->
<i o="wall_3"          x="-39.0" y="72.0"  z="0.0" r="45" ></i>
<i o="paint_gun" x="-38.0" y="72.0"  z="0.0" r="90" ></i>
<i o="ceiling lamp_2" x="45.0"  y="25.0"  z="2.0" r="0" stackpos="-1"></i>
<i o="Leonard_Nimoy" x="69.0"  y="39.0"  z="0.0" r="90" ></i>
<i o="OVNI_saucer" x="-94.0" y="-20.0" z="1.5" r="0" ></i>

Elevated Layers Explaining Graph:

Well I want to discuss this topic with all of you (devs and other users), any replays are apretiated  :).

Framework development / Re: User suggestions and requests
« on: July 31, 2009, 11:44:53 am »
Hi vtchill  :) 
 Another "quick post "... Thanks  ;) ! I will certainly keep working with this, and thanks a lot for listening  :).


Game creators corner / Re: Objects transparency and fake alpha
« on: July 31, 2009, 11:37:00 am »
Thanks Phoku!

   I thought that "SDLRemoveFakeAlpha" was the solution :P.Thanks for the explanaition...
   ImageMagick was exactly what I need, and is great that is available also on linux/unix platforms. I tested some batch conversion of images and it works great, but I will have to figure out how to remove the remaining border a bit better, maybe raising the value of  the '-fuzz' option (by the moment it didnt work  :P ).

Here's the Windows command line:
Code: [Select]
convert -transparent lightgray -fuzz 20% TestBunny.png  TestBunny_TRANSPARENT2.png
Here are the results:

   Cheers  ;)

Game creators corner / Re: About the Map Geometry
« on: July 30, 2009, 10:51:28 am »
Thanks mvBarracuda! :)

  They are mostly from FOT, some tiles like the grass are mine .

Framework development / Re: User suggestions and requests
« on: July 29, 2009, 05:53:24 pm »
Hi Chewie! :D

Like always... Thanks you for your patience and help! You deserve a little reward for all your efforts ;D :

 Hope you enjoy it, is radiation free...

 Its ok, I understand that are higher priorities and a few ppl ,Ill try to find out a way, as you suggested , maybe searching for someone else with the same interests.
 About the elevation topic, check out this recent post of mine:

 I guess that mixing instances z offset values and layers is the way, but for the moment I havent tested with characters moving between the layers, maybe Im wrong,I dunno yet, but looks pretty good already.

About the lighting code, that are good news!
About the map editor, well, as i said to you once,Ill try to make my own tools , and Im already using the Zero's Obj editor, It has been really usefull!!! Thanks!  :)

Cheers , Fallouturama.

Game creators corner / Re: About the Map Geometry
« on: July 29, 2009, 05:29:24 pm »

 Well, here I have prepared a little multiple wall elevations test, to show + explain how I managed to do it.   ;)

 I set a z value on each instance of the same layer, and I make that value higher at upper layers. Also , as I said before Im using big grids for ground tiles and half sized grids for everything else.Here is the result:

(Srry for the size of this screenshots...  ;D)

Here an entire building layer is hidden.

Here you can see the grids

I still have to implement blocking grids, my walls remainds me the ones of Fallout 1 & 2... They need blocking grids everywhere! :D

Framework development / User suggestions and requests
« on: July 29, 2009, 07:12:31 am »
Hi everybody! :)

  I didnt knew exactly where to post suggestions or requests, so I thought that "Framework development" was a usefull place for this.
  Also I was about to continue posting on several old forum topics but I consider that resuming all into one new topic is more clear  :).  

  I have been testing some features of FIFE and FIFE Map Editor because Im trying to develop a game, and well , at this moment Im really glad and happy of finding FIFE,I may love it already  ;) , I really like what is capable of being done over this engine.

  Mainly ,I want my game maps to be rotated ingame, like Rio the hola, and also I want to implement  multiple elevations, allowing characters to move throught the layers (mostly on buildings with levels/ elevations.) It may sounds ambitious , but i have already managed to edit some early maps with this features and currently the most big trouble i have is the lack of multigrid instances :'( .
  Maybe being a newbie is not enought to suggest changes or improvements yet, because I may be wrong with some aproaches :-\ , but at least I want to contribute the project with some ideas and sugestions, that also are my current needs. The ones in black are the most importants/urgents for me:

   FIFE Engine:
  • Multicell or Multigrid Objects:Allow some objects to ocuppie more than just one cell/grid. Without this, overlapping and false physics ocurrs.
  • Elevation support:(Maybe is already fully implemented)Allow characters to walk on layers with multiple elevations.
  • Lightnings:Global light setup and individual spots of lights for characters and lamps.
  • A more detailed error string when parsing xml files, to show better the problem.(I had lot of trouble,sometimes FIFE just hangs up when importing objects and its difficult to identify the problem. )Syntax errors as well as file errors, like long filenames or bad characters (non ASCII chars ) errors.
  • Fake alpha removal: I dont know if its implemented yet, I mean a feature to remove a background color and replace it with full alpha transparency.(On the techdemo I read something about this on the config xml file, I tested it but didnt make it work.)

   Map Editor:
  • Multiple instance rotation and offset corrector
  • Improved Object Editor: providing offset correction on actions too
  • Multiple Instance copy and paste .
  • Ground tile huge area generator:Select a tile object for the area ,a layer,and the size of the rectangular area
  • Current Instance Rotation : all new instances are generated with the rotation value selected (avoids clicks and several time lost)
  • Current Instance Offset(at least z axis elevation): all new instances are generated with the x y z  offset value selected (avoids clicks and several time lost)
  • Layer Elevation Support:I dont really know how should be implemented, but the idea is this one: should be a graphical z offset for each layer to provide , mainly, wall elevations for buildings.
  • Manual xml instance/ object/layer editor:A text editor for the current instance/ object/layer selected to make "manually debugging"of the texts

   Forum :
  • A new category: User sugestions and requests, to allow users to post ideas and needs on this forum. (Off course if there is no prior place to post this topics. :P )

I hope not to be so anoying with all this requests , I know that this is an open source project  ;D , but with this I want to also show you all that FIFE is very alive, and is moving slowly  fowards (There will be more and more people in time ,using it to make games or who knows what else!).

Thank you all guys for listening! ;)


Game creators corner / Re: About the Map Geometry
« on: July 27, 2009, 06:38:42 am »
Moin  Chewie  :)

  Thanks for the replay ;) , The matter with my walls is that the are graphically different to the ones @ Zero (judging by some of your Zero screenshots), I have portions of walls that should fit each base on a grid (like Fallout 1 & 2 walls)and then wall by wall (almost brick by brick  :D ), edit a building without ugly overlaps, gaps and other dirty graphicall efects, and I want to totally avoid the use of x and y offsets because I hope not to be the only one making the maps on my game  in the future :P, I hope that with a  good geometry setting, maps are going to be easier to make, and there will be no need of messing around with complex offset concepts.

I hope you've a mathematician at hand - because in terms of figuring out the proper geometry, you'll need one.
Lol , I dont have any mathematician, I barely have myself into this!!!  :D

 I am worried about this map-geometry planning stage because I want to avoid  later fixes  to all maps and individual object  offsets. I was thinking so much on fallout hexes, but now I give up!!! lol, yeah, This is my current plan (It may change on time  ::) ) :

   Im going to use square grids for everything, and only tiles are going to have double sized square grids,  because of this Ill have to use blocking grids to fix the holes on the walls and avoid my characters to behave like ghosts when walk through them :D. I came to this idea because It works 95% OK with my wall objects(I have a ugly overlapping on corners).The bad part of this is that grids are going to became so small that  big characters like brahmin and supermutants are going to need some sort of multicell or multigrid feature that I don know how to implement yet.... Do you have any idea about this chewie? Does anyone has info about multigrid instances?Ive noticed that someone called Agripa was trying to code this into FIFE ages ago (2008  :P ). If this have no solution... Ouch!  :'(.

   About the walls with elevations, I discover that the z value of instances do perfectly what i needed, but the bad part of this is that there is not a simple way to override all instances on the same layer with the same z value, so by the moment Im will "try" to develop a new Object Editor plugin for this job, and well , at scripting stages, all character instances will have to jump up and down with a constant step value per each stacked walking layer.

  I dont know if someone else is trying to use the 360 degree rotation of the map , or several wall and rooves elevation, It would be  nice to meet someone else trying the same objectives, to share some knowledge each other...  ;)

I think  that  FIFE is great already ;D  , that the features It has are excelent!!! I love the main 2,5D ( 2D ++  ;D) ,with rotation, and the idea that all of this works at the same time with the instance elevation capabilities is awsome!!!.  If someone is interested on my early sugestions about this topics, I would say that to implement some xml tags on layer definition to override values like z axis offsets to all instances hierarchically I think it would be really useful.
Cheers Fallouturama  ;) .

Game creators corner / About the Map Geometry
« on: July 25, 2009, 12:47:49 am »
Hi everybody!  :)

    There is a lot of info on internet about map geometry on 2D isometric game engines and grid types, after searching and studing about the topic, I still have some questions that I wish to ask because I dont fully understand some things,I need a more practical and less theorical point of view to apply it on my game  :) .

   I want to use the FIFE ingame map rotation feature :o , actually my tests consists on maps with a rotation of 45 degree and tilt value of -60 ,with the square grid type,I am already using rectangular ground tiles like this one:

  In fact all the ground tiles Im going to use are rectangular like the one above.

  Like the classic Fallout combat systems ;) , I want to use hexagonal battle grids with turn based combats. Im now planning the map geometry that Im going to use on my game. At first I thought  that because the geometry of my tiles I had to use square grids on all layers, but thinking that the battle grids are hexagonal, and are positioned at the object layer (layer with walls, characters and other objects),

  1) My 1st question is what type of grids I should use on each layer.

  2) My 2nd question is a simple one: On which cases is good to use square and hexagonal grids and what is the practical difference between them

  I am also planning to allow my characters to move through several layers, I made some tests but I fail to stack more than 1 building level  (building level= ground+objects+roof layers) on the same map. I managed to just edit 1 building level by asigning offsets to objects, but I want to know if there is another way to do this because when I define an object like a roof tile with an y_offset to fit into a 1st building level, and i want to use it also on a 2nd building level , I need to use another object to avoid changing again its offset value. Remember that I need to rotate the map  ingame. I also tryed the layer y_offset and x_offset values, but they dont work as I spected when rotating the map.

  3) So my 3rd question is how do I should stack more than 1 building level into the same map?
UPDATE: Ive just make a test and I succesfully use the z axis value of instances to raise a wall to a 2d building level and  it rotate just perfect, but i wish to still hear from someone with experience if this method is the right one if I want later to allow characters to walk on rooves and to climb ladders and such things... :)

Game creators corner / Re: About the Map Editor
« on: July 22, 2009, 07:48:33 am »
Moin Chewie!  :)

Thanks for your help. Actually I have already made a map capable of being rotated, but my major obstacle was to correct the offsets of the frames of the animations and to create rotated instances. Ive noticed that the instance x and y  values are not offsets the way the animation-frames offsets are, It seems to be that they are like a float representation value of the instance position in the map, and the real offsets on each frame are graphical offsets.Those ones are the ones I had to set up by hand. Well, ill keep working on this, i hope to develope some kind of plugin for my needs, if its good enought, Ill share it to the comunity.

Cheers Fallouturama.

Game creators corner / Re: HUD implementation
« on: July 22, 2009, 07:36:50 am »
Moin Chewie!  :)

What are you doing - are you developing a game or something like that?  Grin

Yes, I have just wrote a post ,introducing myself properly in the forum.  :)

Thanks for the tutorial and the example screenshot, Ill try to get into pychan to code a HUD and a plugin for the map editor, of course if i succed with this  :D  ,lol. If I manage to do some useful code, could it be uploaded to the comunity some way?, as example code or utility. Of course i would sugest someone experienced to test it before! lol I hope not to be a mess!  :P

Cheers Fallouturama.

Introduce yourself / Hi everyone, Im Fallouturama.
« on: July 22, 2009, 07:23:55 am »
Hi Everyone !  :)

 Im Fallouturama  :) , I have to confess that I am another Fallout 1 & 2 fan and since a while Ive watched FIFE admired, but with fear,because I have not  experience on game development,but now I have decided to give FIFE and me a chance :).Im actually impressed by Zero, I swear, (really, Im not saying this to buy your help chewie !!!  :)  lol  )I am waiting to play it as well as Fonline, and I have already try Krai Mira, all post apocalyptic games.

My plan is the development of another fan made post-apocalyptic RPG game , aiming to be as faithfull to Fallout as it can be, following the same style , history and art.

By the moment Im just by myself on this quest,I know that Is a long path of hard work, but by the moment i have time to spend, and a lot of passion to offer.

I was planning to introduce myself earlier, but I posposed, sorry everyone!!! :)

Long Life to FIFE and to the comunity  ;) !!!!


Game creators corner / HUD implementation
« on: July 22, 2009, 05:46:34 am »
Hello everyone!  :)

   This time I wish to know how to implement a HUD with transparency and no rectangular borders in  FIFE. For example a png image with transparency @ the background. I havent try anything with pychan yet, maybe my answer is there, but what i have noticed in the pychan test/demo client is that all examples are windows or dialogs. Does anyone has an example of code , to help me to do this :) ? Im not a python guru :'( ,thats why I ask for help, but I wish to learn...I would apretiate any help  :) .

Game creators corner / Re: About the Map Editor
« on: July 21, 2009, 09:01:22 pm »
Moin Chewie  ;)

Thanks for the replay, Is always good to learn new things from you. :) :)  :) I was thinking that maybe an improvement to the editor, and the Object Selector plugin, would be the idea of treat instances or generate instances based on other instances, and no just based on objects , because If im not wrong, the rotation in the map I think that is just implemented with the xml instance rotation tag, and is not obtained in the object.xml  files.

I wish to know more about FIFE to help to improve the editor, and not just point what is not properly working on it  :-[ . But for now I  can just point my ideas and the problems I encountered while working with the editor without offering much contribution, but  remember, my intention is to also help you all :).

I had the chance to rotate the lil girl of Rio The Hola by changing the rotation tag of it instance in the map xml file, and i had her moving around the game with a constant rotation of that value i modified, added to her current rotation whatever the action her was showing . For example, if i make her walk to east, she had to point east, but with a rot = 90 she was actually pointing north, an so on... So that rotation value I guess is always added to the current rotation of the instance action being drawed.

I am very interested on this rotation setting because I want to make fully rotating capable maps, i have for example ,walls that are not a single cardinal headed image per object (i mean  not  4 objects = 1 wall), instead of that, i have a wall being an object action with 4 degrees animations (sometimes animations of just 1 frame,sometimes not). Using the map editor I currently cant create already rotated walls , and besides of that I cant even rotate a wall instance with the editor, because i actually need to rotate the default action.

I mean that It would be very useful ,for example to add a rotation combobox in the editor, to make every selected or about to be created instances to modify their rotation value automatically to the one selected in the rotation combobox. Another idea is to add to the function of the "pick the object of an instance" button (Lol I dont know the proper name  ;D ) to not just pick the object info, instead of that, to pick the instance info too, (for example the rotation of the selected instance) .

Game creators corner / About the Map Editor
« on: July 21, 2009, 06:19:03 am »
 Hello guys, its me again :P .

   I wish to know if there is any improved  Map Editor version around the community, I dont mean that the current trunk version is bad,Its cool already,but  I wish to handle more deeply (a bit more technically) and easily the object and map editing, I had a lot of objects with position offsets to correct, and I have a lot of issues while rotating objects like walls and others than need to be rotated (and also created with a specific rotation)in mass. Ive noticed that maybe there is a bug concerning the rotation editing of instances, has anyone managed to fix that ?.I thought  that maybe the guys at Zero, PARPG or Unknown Horizons had an improved map editor, or at least some other plugins or tools to handle the object editing more graphically and less "textically"  ;D .

I also want to know how is that FIFE choose default actions for an instance . Ive noticed that when working with the editor, It chooses an action without allowing to change it with a tool, and I haven't seen on the object.xml file an option to select an action as a default one.

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